254 points by sohkamyung 271 days ago | 13 comments
0_____0 271 days ago
It's basically the FREE POINT square on the bingo card at this point. When someone builds a cool robot that they don't know what to do with, it's inevitably for SAR. I've worked on a couple of them myself.
screye 270 days ago
Can't forget having to signal away from military. Accessible drone AI can be used to stop petty crime, man the borders, catch drug smuggling boats & ofc, kill people effectively. These uses are drenched in politics, so have to signal something more palatable.

Truly accessible drone automation software is instant unicorn status. It would've been acquired by Anduril or Dji before it saw the light of day.

We live in an interesting time where the 1st world's biggest problems (illegal immigration, drug smuggling, obesity, effective transportation, solving crimes, infinite energy) are already solved from a technical standpoint. But we artificially limit their use due to dystopian vibes.

unethical_ban 270 days ago
Good! The "vibes" are real. We don't live in Star Trek, we live in Black Mirror. We dont have a world where Superman would exist, we would have Homelander.

The ability for an authority to have perfect knowledge of who is in every area of a city, and conversely to have instant access to where every person is, is terrifying.

At no point in human history has society been built on expecting perfect, uniform enforcement of laws and that has gone from "beyond wildest imagination" to technically doable in two generations.

_aavaa_ 270 days ago
Surely this is sarcasm. None of the things you list are solely technical problem, or even technical at all. They are all political problems.

The politics that you claim artificially limit solutions are simply a set of politics different than your own.

The 1st world’s biggest problems start with the climate change they are causing.

drhagen 271 days ago
It even has an xkcd: https://xkcd.com/2128/
y-curious 271 days ago
I'm mind-blown at how relevant that is here
thaumasiotes 271 days ago
Oddly, the example in the comic is an absolutely awful example of the phenomenon described in the caption. A robot that can induce targeted lightning strikes has obvious military applications. Screw search and rescue.
kolinko 270 days ago
Or perhaps it’s a meta comic about dual use :)

A lot of the claimed s&r applications are really a thin cover for military gear.

I remember trying to mentor a hardware startup on an event, and we just couldn’t find the common language with the girl that was pitching it. I just couldn’t see how the cases would justify the market.

Only later on I figured out that the cases were absurd, and all of them really a cover for military applications.

Finding survivors in a forest = finding partisans, is the most common one.

ppsreejith 271 days ago
To be pedantic, the comic doesn't mention _targeted_ lightning strikes.
JumpCrisscross 270 days ago
> robot that can induce targeted lightning strikes has obvious military applications

Rescue victims are just the co-operating category of hidden people.

rightbyte 270 days ago
The hookshot also is a weapon in OoT.
A4ET8a8uTh0 271 days ago
At this point, xkcd must be like Simpsons. They already did everything.
amelius 271 days ago
I'm starting to suspect that google is behind xkcd, i.e. running some generative AI script behind the scenes whenever someone looks for a comic.
KMnO4 271 days ago
I wonder how hard this would be. As a joke, I put your comment into Claude and asked for an XKCD comic. Surprisingly, it generated (a very bad) SVG image:

https://jumpshare.com/s/cBhNffK6aWZX5SwYP0YN

I asked it to instead generate a comic in text form and got the following:

Title: "The XKCD Paradox"

Panel 1: A stick figure is typing on a computer. Above them is a thought bubble: "I bet there's an XKCD about how there's always a relevant XKCD."

Panel 2: The screen shows a Google search result. The stick figure exclaims, "Huh, there isn't one. That's weird."

Panel 3: We see the inside of a Google data center. Servers are labeled "XKCD Generator AI." An alarm is flashing with the text "Paradox detected!"

Panel 4: A stick figure resembling Randall Munroe is shown frantically drawing at a desk. A speech bubble reads, "Must... draw... comic... about... always... having... relevant... comic..."

Panel 5: Back to the original stick figure, now looking at a new XKCD comic on their screen. The comic is titled "Meta-Relevance" and shows a recursive image of stick figures looking at computers.

Panel 6: A wide shot shows both the stick figure and the Randall Munroe character simultaneously saying, "Whew, balance restored."

Footnote at the bottom of the comic: "Plot twist: This comic was generated by an AI trying to convince you it wasn't generated by an AI."

This version plays with the meta-concept of XKCD's relevance, the idea of paradoxes in AI, and adds a layer of self-referential humor typical of XKCD. It also touches on the theme of AI-generated content trying to prove it's not AI-generated, adding an extra layer of cleverness to the concept.

kenjackson 270 days ago
Maybe a little on the nose, but way better than I can do.
myst 270 days ago
The textual one is quite good! I wish Randall does it.
xarope 271 days ago
xkcd has targeted humor, which I think GANs are not able to demonstrate (at least for now!)
hiddencost 271 days ago
Free business ideas, because I want this to exist:

Use drones with IR cameras:

* Find deer after they're shot. Right now you need to hire a blood hound and it takes hours

* Do wildlife surveys for conservation and management departments

* Pest management for farmers

krisoft 271 days ago
Suprisingly your first idea is illegal in some states. For example it is illegal in Texas.

https://www.skysenderos.com/blogs/thermal-drone-deer-recover...

ivanhoe 270 days ago
It'd be impossible to limit the use of drones to just recovery, some people would use them for tracking down the animals which is a horrible idea to allow.
mschuster91 270 days ago
Actually that is quite common in Germany, just for the completely opposite purpose - farmers use Mavic 2/3 Thermal drones to scout out for baby deer prior to letting a corn or grain harvester raze a field... because turns out, baby deer just freeze up when they are afraid of the machines and end up getting chopped up by the blades.
sleepybrett 271 days ago
> * Find deer after they're shot. Right now you need to hire a blood hound and it takes hours

They tried this exact thing with the kentucky freeway shooter using both helicopter based FLIR system and IR camera equipped drones and failed. Eventually the dudes body was found by a group of ... as far as i can tell, wilderness youtubers working with a police search party.

Even the dogs didn't find him.

arkh 271 days ago
Launch from car while stuck in some random traffic jam: learn the cause of the jam and how long it is.
tashi 271 days ago
A good idea unless it becomes popular.

I'm picturing bumper-to-bumper traffic on a highway with a cloud of drones overhead. Each person in their individual car using their individual drone to all report back the same thing: that everything is moving slowly because there are just too many cars on the road right now. With luck, the drones only crash into each other every once in a while, just like the cars below.

rnewme 271 days ago
Just get cb radio
Scoundreller 271 days ago
please, there are children in my car!
kjs3 270 days ago
There was a recent story about a medivac helicopter not being able to land to help accident victims because someone had parked their drone over the wreck to check it out/get clicks.
quesera 271 days ago
Mobile maps apps already do this pretty well.
khafra 270 days ago
Launch while parking with an unfamiliar trailer or in an unfamiliar area.
sverhagen 270 days ago
This may not be legal, per the FAA.
joshvm 270 days ago
I've worked on 2 (and also for SAR). Not many people working in that field still and there's very little open data.

Thermal is really good in the UK because the ground is rarely that warm. You can easily see a person hiding among rocks, for example. It's basically Cops. In equatorial Africa you can only use it at dawn/dusk (or overnight) because the ground is so hot.

hluska 271 days ago
If you google “thermal drone for hunting” you will find some YouTube videos about people solving the first problem.

Pest management is a heck of a good idea. The province of Alberta is officially rat free - if Alberta doesn’t have something like this I bet they would be interested. Especially if it could do double duty for wildlife surveys.

pclmulqdq 270 days ago
Stick a .22 on a drone with a thermal camera for pest management and that will be one of the most "American Dynamism" startups ever built.
numpad0 270 days ago
The problem is that night-vision-y technologies are heavily controlled and price inflated. Only few are willing to buy QCIF 30Hz cameras at $500 from AliExpress or from legitimate resellers at $2k.
0_____0 270 days ago
Tardy add-on: after reading TfA this is not a case of cool robot becomes SARbot. This is a suite of specific tools meant to find people in the mountains. Come on y'all, you can't let me get away with middlebrow dismissal like that!!!
ImHereToVote 270 days ago
Just don't fill the drone with explosives SAR.
zero_k 270 days ago
Search And Rescue (SAR) is sometimes VERY political. We build long-range RC airplanes to help find boats in distress at sea on the Mediterranean [1]. As you might expect, we could do 10x better, with less resources, if the powers that be wouldn't make it impossible to e.g. launch from an island and return to an island. So we launch from a boat, because it's not national territory and they can't make it impossible.

Shameless Plug: If you wanna join, let us know. We definitely would benefit from better on&off-board image recognition. But there are many, less buzzword-y, challenges as well: designing, building & testing airplanes, training pilots, delivering planes & batteries (challenging due to Watt-Hour restrictions), remote issue debugging, etc.

[1] https://tha.de/searchwing/

JumpCrisscross 270 days ago
In case it needs to be spelled out, the problem is Europe has a maritime duty to rescue [1]. Once rescued, it has a duty to consider asylum and take care of the migrants/refugees [2]. Essentially, once SAR identifies a migrant vessel in distress, the closest country is forced to admit them.

The duty to rescue means "a state cannot legally prohibit its vessels from rescuing persons at sea." This technically covers search. But some Mediterranean governments have taken the view that if they don't see the migrant vessel sink they don't have a duty to rescue.

[1] https://blogs.law.ox.ac.uk/research-subject-groups/centre-cr...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Sta...

ljsprague 270 days ago
Start sinking the vessels intentionally and they'll stop coming. You might save lives in the long run.
zero_k 269 days ago
You are actively advocating for the death of people. This must be deleted by the OPs ASAP. What is even going on.
edgineer 268 days ago
Rafts leaving Libya are incapable of reaching Italy on their own and are scuttled when they see a ship that could rescue them.

The expected value of this gamble is higher when search efforts are high. Migrants would not take this gamble if they were sure it would not work, right?

ljsprague 269 days ago
It's a thought experiment. And my end goal would be to save lives in the long run.
tacticalDonut 270 days ago
What email should I reach you folks at? I'm an ML engineer and have specialized in computer vision, both on edge and at hyperscale.

I'd like to help how I can.

zero_k 269 days ago
It's hard to find, sorry. The contact info is here: https://www.hs-augsburg.de/searchwing/de/standorte/

Best to contact: philipp.borgers@searchwing.org

tacticalDonut 269 days ago
Great thanks! Sent an email. Second child being born soon so I'll have some (sleep deprived) time to work on this for the next 6 months!
isx726552 271 days ago
Put weapons on it (as already seen in current conflicts) and it becomes a seek-and-assassinate tool. Drones are cheap enough it could even be done en masse. It is a scary future, and it’s not far away at all.
jvanderbot 271 days ago
S&R has always been a front for weaponized robotics, IMHO.

The last DARPA grand challenge (Subterrainean) had automated drone networks that could find and identify humans in caves and tunnels. They were at least up front about the military challenges in these environments. (https://www.darpa.mil/program/darpa-subterranean-challenge), but the nod at civilian first-responders doesn't seem fair. Honestly, is cave-in such a big civilian problem that we need to prioritize it as a talking point at all levels?

cpgxiii 271 days ago
> Honestly, is cave-in such a big civilian problem that we need to prioritize it as a talking point at all levels?

Considering (1) the number of people who are employed in mining occupations, (2) the frequency of serious accidents in mines, yes. Particularly in developed countries, societies expect that great lengths will be gone to rescue or recover the victims, and mine rescue is incredibly dangerous work.

(1) BLS says ~200K in the US in 2024, although only a minority of them work underground.

(2) BLS says "underground mining machine operators" is the 9th deadliest job in the US, and that is with a large and well-equipped mine rescue system (MSRA says 250 teams across the country).

jvanderbot 271 days ago
Are the other 8 BLS most dangerous professions being heavily automated and augmented with robots?

Roofers, fishing and hunting workers, construction "helpers", etc?

There's a case to be made that some of them are, I guess.

cpgxiii 271 days ago
Mining is heavily mechanized and automated already, yet remains inescapably dangerous.

Pragmatically speaking, when someone falls off a roof or a tree, it doesn't turn into a highly public, high-risk, government-responsibility rescue mission. When someone gets trapped in a mine, it does.

(If you fall off a tree logging in Alaska, there is a good chance a USCG helicopter crew comes to your aid, but that is more of a "five minutes in the local news" story than "nightly news host reporting live on location" event.)

nl 270 days ago
I suspect the vast majority of deaths in underground mining in the US aren't from cave-ins but instead from heavy equipment accidents.

According to [1] there were 8 deaths in underground machine operators category in 2022.

There's a more detailed table at [2] but I don't quite understand how this aligns with the first one (the numbers seem different, but I think the category is "Mining (except oil and gas)").

In any case the majority of fatalities are from "Transportation incidents" or "Contact with object and equipment". I think cave-ins would be classed as "Fires and explosions"

[1] https://www.bls.gov/charts/census-of-fatal-occupational-inju...

[2] https://www.bls.gov/iif/fatal-injuries-tables/fatal-occupati...

shadowgovt 271 days ago
It's generally hard to say what's a "front" for what, unless you mean "what can you get someone to grant you research money for when you really expect to parlay the learnings into another topic."

Everything about the rocketry needed to get to orbit started from warfare purposes, for example. And ARPANET was a foray into how to build a disruption-resistant network for military purposes.

Science and knowledge are a bit of a soup.

lupusreal 271 days ago
A read a comment here a while ago about "search and rescue" being a euphemism for military applications and that's the first thing I thought of when I saw this story.
looofooo0 271 days ago
Guess what happens in Ukraine.
morkalork 271 days ago
The future is already here – it's just not very evenly distributed
rvnx 271 days ago
It exists in Estonia ("thanks" to Googley Eric Schmidt!), it's a company that had codename White Stork.
ants_everywhere 271 days ago
It looks like they may have changed their name. White Stork is the name of a charity that provides first aid kits and other aid in Ukraine.

https://whitestork.us/

https://x.com/WilliamMcNulty/status/1798855191858712929

avibhu 271 days ago
Ironic name.
hiddencost 271 days ago
National bird of Ukraine
LorenPechtel 271 days ago
This system would not work against camouflage.
idunnoman1222 271 days ago
I mean it would you just have to put different optics on it thermal, near infrared and normal, and have three different detection neural nets
yieldcrv 271 days ago
I've been saying that any armistace on drones won't come until the US starts being hit by drone warfare. Especially by a foreign militia or nation state
JumpCrisscross 270 days ago
> armistace on drones won't come

Drones are useful. There have been zero useful technologies in war that have ever been successfully banned. (No [1].)

Every weapon that has been banned brought asymmetric advantage, i.e. disadvantaged the powerful, or has had its ban flouted, e.g. cluster munitions.

[1] https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-ch...

colechristensen 271 days ago
What do you think UFOs are?
yieldcrv 271 days ago
they need to cause collateral damage, not busy work for FOIA respondents in Ohio
idunnoman1222 271 days ago
The US is the biggest user of drones. What are you talking about?
m4rtink 271 days ago
I would not be so sure - a mind boggling number of drones and drone types are used in the Ukraine war, from small observation drones, over supply drones, drop drones, fast one way FPV kill drones up to almost regular drone swarm exchanges with 100+ drones going one way (indigenous Ukrainian drones one way, clones of Iranian Shaheds from the Russian side).

An oil terminal in Feodosia is still burning after the latest Ukrainina strike.

There was even a few cases of re-purposed ultra light aircraft serving as one way drones for ultra long range strikes on the Ukrainian side.

In another region Israel has to shoot down various terrorist launched one way UAVs almost regularly by this point & uses UAVs heavily by itself.

So while US certainly did pioneer UAV use, it seems to be it is getting eclipsed by other states in this area.

Sevii 271 days ago
It's not unless you consider Ukraine part of the US. Russia and Ukraine are using 10k+ drones per month each.
hooverd 271 days ago
US civilians aren't subjected to them though.
shadowgovt 271 days ago
Precisely. It's about terror. The US having the political capital it does (among other things, being a Security Council member in the UN), Americans won't push their government to curtail drone use until and unless they're on the receiving end of asymmetric warfare attacks perpetrated with low-cost disposables carrying lethal payloads.

(Certainly not advocating for this, but noting that it's the most likely trigger to get the ball rolling on regulation of drones in military operation where very little currently exists).

vzaliva 271 days ago
Satellite SOS, recently introduced in iPhone and Google Pixel phones, will help a lot with lost hiker cases. However, drone-based search will still be useful in case the hiker broke the phone or is too incapacitated to use it.
mschuster91 270 days ago
There's another pretty common case: children who get lost somehow or decide to go on walks by their own and don't find their way back home but seek shelter wherever they can.

I'm training for drone-based SAR at the German THW (Technical Relief Agency) at the moment, and that's probably going to be the majority of usecases.

pgraf 271 days ago
I don‘t see any hint of AI being used here, but rather a handcrafted computer vision algorithm. Can anyone more involved in the matter elaborate if there was an actual AI model used?
yifanl 271 days ago
We don't have a formal classification of which technologies can be considered "AI", but computer vision would feel like a valid entrant to me.
godelski 271 days ago
I thought AI meant "ML" + marketing.

I joke, but not. I'm a researcher and AI has been a pretty ambiguous term for years, mostly because intelligence is still not well defined. Unfortunately I think it's becoming less well defined in the last few years (while prior to that was getting better defined) via the (Fox) Mulder Effect.

datameta 271 days ago
Computer vision totally qualifies as AI as it can grant an agent artificially intelligent behavior.
KaiserPro 270 days ago
The fuck it does.

for it to be AI, it needs some sort of ML basis. otherwise its just fancy "classical" computer vision.

(this is from someone who's been working in the field for far too long, and remembers a time before "deep", "ML" and "ai" were part of every paper. )

sleepybrett 271 days ago
Based on what is said in the article, it seems like a VERY simple algorithm. It clusters the pixels in the image by color and reports any small blobs of unusual color. That's not AI by any of the stupid definitions we've come up with recently.
morkalork 271 days ago
Clustering and outlier detection is not AI?
LorenPechtel 271 days ago
To me the fundamental difference is that AI is trained, algorithms are not. There's not training here, it's a simple frequency count looking for outliers. While it's an approach a human would take the human is doing it in a very different fashion. And the human is much more sensitive to form, this is much more sensitive to color.

They are definitely right that our (I am a hiker) gear tends to stand out against nature. Not only is it generally in colors that do not appear in any volume in nature, but almost nothing in the plant and mineral kingdoms is of uniform color. A blob of uniform color is in all probability either a monochromatic animal (the sheep their system detects) or man made.

What surprises me about this is that it hasn't been tried before.

KolmogorovComp 271 days ago
You are confusing AI and Machine Learning, the latter being a subset of the former.
kxrm 271 days ago
This really gets at one of my issues with the term "AI". There is a very scientific, textbook definition of what Artificial Intelligence is however, this term carries baggage from sci-fi.

Using a term like "AI" to describe this is like using a term "Food" to describe pickles. Poor analogy but "AI" is just so vast that most lay readers or those not familiar with this phrase in regular computer science discussions aren't grounded in the consequence.

I feel that we as an industry need to do better and use terms more responsibly and know our audience. There is a big difference between a clustering algorithm that detects pixels and flags them and a conscious, self-aware system. However both of those things are "AI" and both have very different consequences.

theamk 270 days ago
Sure there is training - most few practical algorithms have dozens of tunable parameters - bucket size, thresholds, camera settings, image normalization settings and so on. It may not be 175 billion weights, but this still needs plenty of training data.

I've participated in hobby robot competition in the past, which required simple-sounding vision part: find a bright orange object on a green grass in bright sunlight, and very roughly estimate distance. We had to get 200+ training images and manually label each of them to get any sort of decent performance.

YeGoblynQueenne 271 days ago
This is the list of discussion topics from the Dartmouth Workshop on Artificial Intelligence (1955) where the term was first introduced:

  The following are some aspects of the artificial intelligence problem: 

  1 Automatic Computers

  If a machine can do a job, then an automatic calculator can be programmed to simulate the machine. The speeds and memory capacities of present computers may be insufficient to simulate many of the higher functions of the human brain, but the major obstacle is not lack of machine capacity, but our inability to write programs taking full advantage of what we have.

  2. How Can a Computer be Programmed to Use a Language

  It may be speculated that a large part of human thought consists of manipulating words according to rules of reasoning and rules of conjecture. From this point of view, forming a generalization consists of admitting a new word and some rules whereby sentences containing it imply and are implied by others. This idea has never been very precisely formulated nor have examples been worked out.

  3. Neuron Nets

  How can a set of (hypothetical) neurons be arranged so as to form concepts. Considerable theoretical and experimental work has been done on this problem by Uttley, Rashevsky and his group, Farley and Clark, Pitts and McCulloch, Minsky, Rochester and Holland, and others. Partial results have been obtained but the problem needs more theoretical work.

  4. Theory of the Size of a Calculation

  If we are given a well-defined problem (one for which it is possible to test mechanically whether or not a proposed answer is a valid answer) one way of solving it is to try all possible answers in order. This method is inefficient, and to exclude it one must have some criterion for efficiency of calculation. Some consideration will show that to get a measure of the efficiency of a calculation it is necessary to have on hand a method of measuring the complexity of calculating devices which in turn can be done if one has a theory of the complexity of functions. Some partial results on this problem have been obtained by Shannon, and also by McCarthy.

  5. Self-lmprovement

  Probably a truly intelligent machine will carry out activities which may best be described as self-improvement. Some schemes for doing this have been proposed and are worth further study. It seems likely that this question can be studied abstractly as well.

  6. Abstractions

  A number of types of ``abstraction'' can be distinctly defined and several others less distinctly. A direct attempt to classify these and to describe machine methods of forming abstractions from sensory and other data would seem worthwhile.

  7. Randomness and Creativity

  A fairly attractive and yet clearly incomplete conjecture is that the difference between creative thinking and unimaginative competent thinking lies in the injection of a some randomness. The randomness must be guided by intuition to be efficient. In other words, the educated guess or the hunch include controlled randomness in otherwise orderly thinking. 
From:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070826230310/http://www-formal...

So, no, the fundamental difference is not that "AI is trained, algorithms are not". Some hand-crafted algorithms fall under the purview of AI research. A modern example is graph-search algorithms like MCTS or A*.

sleepybrett 270 days ago
A* is a miss on 3, 5 and 7 at minimum.
tpxl 270 days ago
Novel stuff is AI, old stuff is statistics. Decision trees used to be called AI :)
short_sells_poo 271 days ago
I mean, if something as traditional as simple clustering is AI, then so is linear regression and Excel Sheets have been doing AI/ML for the past 2 decades.

At some point we just have to stop with the breathless hype. I'm sure labelling it as AI gets more clicks and exposure so I know exactly why they do it. Still, it's annoying.

YeGoblynQueenne 271 days ago
At least until recently any introductory machine learning course would teach linear regression and clustering, the latter as an example of unsupervised learning.
sleepybrett 271 days ago
Sure, but as a stepping stone.

There is no model here, there is no neural net.

morkalork 271 days ago
Yes! AI is any sort of machine intelligence and its been around for more than 2 decades, the 80s even had its own "AI winter" after all.
Gud 271 days ago
There is no intelligence here, only pattern matching.
kvakerok 271 days ago
The same could be said about many people.
wizzwizz4 271 days ago
You're only saying this because we're in a hype cycle. Circa 2018, there was no problem at all with calling this AI: in fact, it was normal.
kjkjadksj 271 days ago
Back then we still called things image classifiers or machine learning, and when you said AI most people probably had an image of Arnold Schwarzenegger or Cortana flash in their mind.
sleepybrett 271 days ago
it was not.
A4ET8a8uTh0 271 days ago
Maybe? I am currently going through 'artificial intelligence modern approach' by Russel&Norvig and from historical perspective alone, it seems vision would qualify.

It is just that the language drifted a little the way it did with cyber meaning something else to post 90s kids. So now AI seems to be mostly associated with llms, but not that long ago, AI seemed to almost include just use to of an algorithm.

I am not an expert in the field at all. I am just looking at stuff for personal growth.

nostrademons 271 days ago
keybored 271 days ago
I thought that AGI covered that. AGI to my mind doesn’t have to surpass human thinking. It just has to be categorically the same as it (it can be less powerful, or more). It has to be general. A chess machine in a box which can’t do anything else is not general.[1]

I’ve always been fine with calling things AI even though they are all jumbles of stats nonsense that wouldn’t be able to put their own pants on. Does a submarine swim? No, but that’s just the metaphor that the most vocal adherents are wedded to (at the hips). The metaphor doesn’t harm me. And to argue against it is like Chomsky trying to tell programming language designers that programming languages being languages is just a metaphor.

[1] EDIT: In other words it can be on the level of a crow. Or a dog. Just something general. Something that has some animalistic-like intelligence.

nostrademons 271 days ago
I think the point of the Wikipedia article is that human categories are flexible, and they get redefined to suit human ego needs regardless of what's happening in the objective outside world.

Say that you have a closed system that largely operates without human intervention - for example, the current ad fraud mess where you have bots pretending to be humans that don't actually exist to inflate ad counts, all of which gets ranked higher by the ML ad models because it inflates their engagement numbers, but it's all to sell products that don't really work anyway so that the company can post better revenue numbers to Wall Street and unload the shares on prop trading bots and index funds that are all investing algorithmically anyway. On some level, this is a form of "intelligence" even though it doesn't put pants on. For that matter, many human societies don't put pants on, nor do my not-quite-socialized preschool kids. It's only the weight of our collective upbringing, coupled with a desire to feel intelligent, that leads us to equate putting pants on with intelligence. Plenty of people don't put pants on and consider themselves intelligent as well. And the complexity of what computers actually do do is often well beyond the complexity of what humans do.

I often like to flip the concept of "artificial intelligence" on its head and instead think about "natural stupidity". Sure, the hot AI technologies of the moment are basically just massive matrix computations that statistically predict what's likely to come next given all the training data they've seen before. Humans are also basically just massive neural networks that respond to stimulus and reward given all the training data they've seen before. You can make very useful predictions about, say, what is going to get a human to click on a link or open their wallet using these AI technologies. And since we too are relatively predictable human machines that are focused on material wealth and having enough money to get others to satisfy our emotions, this is a very useful asset to have.

keybored 271 days ago
> I think the point of the Wikipedia article is that human categories are flexible, and they get redefined to suit human ego needs regardless of what's happening in the objective outside world.

I know what the point is. Of course computer scientists that make AI (whatever that means) want to be known for making Intelligence. And they get cross when the marvel of yesterday becomes a humdrum utility.

As you can see this part cuts both ways:

> > and they get redefined to suit human ego needs

> Say that you have a closed system that largely operates without human intervention - for example, the current ad fraud mess where you have bots pretending to be humans that don't actually exist to inflate ad counts, all of which gets ranked higher by the ML ad models because it inflates their engagement numbers, but it's all to sell products that don't really work anyway so that the company can post better revenue numbers to Wall Street and unload the shares on prop trading bots and index funds that are all investing algorithmically anyway. On some level, this is a form of "intelligence" even though it doesn't put pants on. For that matter, many human societies don't put pants on, nor do my not-quite-socialized preschool kids. It's only the weight of our collective upbringing, coupled with a desire to feel intelligent, that leads us to equate putting pants on with intelligence. Plenty of people don't put pants on and consider themselves intelligent as well. And the complexity of what computers actually do do is often well beyond the complexity of what humans do.

I bet your AI of choice could write a thesis on how putting pants on is a stupid social construct. Yet if it is incapable of doing it it would just be a bunch of hot air.

> I often like to flip the concept of "artificial intelligence" on its head and instead think about "natural stupidity".

This philosophy tends to go with the territory.

> Sure, the hot AI technologies of the moment are basically just massive matrix computations that statistically predict what's likely to come next given all the training data they've seen before. Humans are also basically just massive neural networks that respond to stimulus and reward given all the training data they've seen before.

“Basically” doing some heavy lifting here.

This is obviously false. We would have gone extinct pretty much immediately if we had to tediously train ourselves from scratch. We have instincts as well.

“But that’s just built-in training.” Okay, now we’re back to it not basically being stimulus-responses to training data they’ve seen before. So what’s the point? When it’s not basically just that.

> You can make very useful predictions about, say, what is going to get a human to click on a link or open their wallet using these AI technologies. And since we too are relatively predictable human machines that are focused on material wealth and having enough money to get others to satisfy our emotions, this is a very useful asset to have.

Yes. Humans have wants and needs and act in ways consistent with cause and effect. E.g. as the clueless “consumer subject” against billions of dollars of marketing money and AI owned by those same marketing departments.

Amazingly: Humans are what you allow them to be.

We could treat all humans according to Skinner Box theory. We could treat them as if Skinner’s stimulus-response theories are correct and only allow them to act inside that framework. That would (again, amazingly) confirm that Skinner was right all along.

Any organism can express itself maximally only in a maximally free setting. A free dog is a dog; a chained human might only be a dog.

The only difference is that humans have words that they can express through their mouthholes about what kind of future they want. If they want to be humans (i.e. human ego needs, sigh) or if they want to be the natural stupidity subjects of the artificial intelligence.

Or they don’t care because they don’t think AI will ever be able to put its pants on.

mportela 271 days ago
I had heard that quote many times but never know it's called "AI effect". Thanks!
RcouF1uZ4gsC 271 days ago
I think at one time, a mechanical calculator would have been considered AI
gamblor956 271 days ago
Computer vision is a field of AI. But this is just an algorithm without any sort of learning or training process.
luke-stanley 270 days ago
They might have needed to learn what a good difference threshold and cluster size is. It's hardly ML like fine-tuning CLIP embeddings is, but there are few solid differences: both explore visual embedding spaces with learned values. Granted, cluster thresholds are more likely to be manually learned, but they are both embedding spaces, with the main difference being dimensionality.

It's very vague for Wired to have used AI in the title, but it's more confusing to say "A previous headline on this piece incorrectly stated that the drone software used AI." - and not obviously correct either.

gamblor956 270 days ago
No, the problem is that the human programmers are the ones doing the learning. That's not artificial intelligence, that's just regular human learning.

The algorithm is: identify pixels that are chromatically different from the surrounding pixels. And that's it. That's not AI, that's an algorithm. Any changes come from the human programmers manually changing the algorithm, not from any self-increased capabilities acquired through machine learning, etc.

luke-stanley 268 days ago
A lot of people do class rule based systems under the umbrella of AI, when I was a kid, I'd run Alicebot on my pocket computer. Definitely "artificial" "intelligence" and well before any of this modern fancy machine learning stuff! Definitely lots of human work. People have different ways of understanding words and AI is a term that is not well defined, to say the least.
sangnoir 271 days ago
ML =/= AI.

Machine learning was widely considered to be a subset of AI, until it got a big resurgence almost 2 decades ago. Now some people use the terms interchangeably.

IshKebab 271 days ago
No, even before the current AI era classical computer vision was not considered to be "AI"... because it isn't. That's just a fact.
moffkalast 271 days ago
Deep learning is just a subset of AI which has officially been a thing since 1956. A chess algorithm is smarter than any human yet it's just classical search.
ithkuil 271 days ago
It's just that the "AI" word is no longer taboo
meigwilym 270 days ago
Wired have edited the headline to remove "AI".
pj_mukh 270 days ago
Handcrafted CV algorithms and this level of autonomy is textbook AI, it’s just not Machine Learning.
RayVR 271 days ago
What is AI?
snapcaster 271 days ago
I'm so tired of this argument. AI is a blurry term as it's used in the world. Who the fuck cares if this is "officially AI" or not? Can we just stop having this discussion?
inexcf 271 days ago
Everyone is thinking the same thing reading that headline. In a stroke of comedic genius the link still says "bodies" instead of "people".
scintill76 271 days ago
I’m amazed this problem isn’t fixed in every CMS, or at least publishing team processes, by now (the problem is that the link slug is generated from the first title and doesn’t update when the title is updated.)
0xffff2 271 days ago
I'm not a web developer at all, but I thought keeping the URL was intentional for SEO reasons.
271 days ago
westurner 270 days ago
{Code-and-Response, Call-for-Code}/DroneAid : "DroneAid: A Symbol Language and ML model for indicating needs to drones, planes" (2010) https://github.com/Code-and-Response/DroneAid .. https://westurner.github.io/hnlog/#story-22707347 :

CORRECTION: All but one of the DroneAid Symbol Language Symbols are drawn within upward pointing triangles.

Is there a simpler set of QR codes for the ground that could be made with sticks or rocks or things the wind won't bend?

Sparkyte 270 days ago
I have always wanted to get into robotics. Maybe my next evolution in stuff is robotics. I'm starting to get tired of big corporate software engineering.

These silly things are neat. I'm also really interested in the snake/worm robots that dig to find people and inflate to move rubble.

ehnto 270 days ago
I had a similar thought years ago. Recently I built a CNC machine and it was a great blend of hands on, practical building work and software work. The software domain being a new challenge was fun too. It felt great to excercise existing skills in a new domain, to reach a new totally novel goal for me.

Now I barely use it, which does suggest that building it is what I really wanted to do all along and that kind of validates that robotics is probably a hobby I'd enjoy.

idunnoman1222 271 days ago
It’s a long article and I’m on mobile. Do they link the code or not?
schiffern 271 days ago
"MRMap is free for use by Mountain Rescue Teams. While being free it is NOT open source." http://www.mrmap.org.uk/index.php/introduction

Relevant changelogs are 6.0a and 6.0b. http://mrmap.org.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=24

tay_bridge 271 days ago
As somebody familiar with the area described in the article I cannot fathom how somebody could be lost, conscious (article mentions messages were exchanged) for so long.
modhash 270 days ago
Does anyone know if there is something similar to this open source?
x62Bh7948f 270 days ago
WALDO: Whereabouts Ascertainment for Low-Lying Detectable Objects

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41723311

270 days ago
catskul2 271 days ago
> The weather was unusually mild for the season, and Kelly thought he might even have time to “bag” a second Munro,

I really hate when people use very uncommon terms without defining them. (or sometimes even people's names)

It's not that I couldn't make a guess based on context, but it's distracting, and I feel like my eyes must have skipped over something and I often keep going back over the text to see what I must have missed reading.

I imagine this is sometimes caused by sloppy editing, especially when they refer to a last name of a person who has yet to be introduced in the article, but I think sometimes it's a deliberate choice and I object.

infecto 271 days ago
Honest question, what was the most confusing part for you? I am guessing bag as that one might be more obscure but even then in the context I think its guessable but maybe a struggle for non-native english speakers. Munro seems difficult but since your selective quote makes it worse imo.

"...a second Munro, as the Scottish mountains above 3,000 feet are known."

The opening paragraph describes him climbing/hiking a mountain in Scotland. "His plan was to climb Creise, a 1,100-meter-high peak overlooking Glen Etive...". Which then leads into him trying to "bag" a second one.

Just a counterpoint that it does not feel like sloppy editing at all. I struggle to see what would be difficult here for native speakers.

more_corn 271 days ago
[flagged]
infecto 271 days ago
> Who bags a mountain? A tortured metaphor if I’ve ever heard one. And 90% of English speakers don’t know what a Munro is. I’ve been to Scotland and never heard the word.

Peak bagging is common in that community but "to bag" something is quite common in native english or at least enough so that its in the Oxford dictionary. Hard for me to see a native speaker struggle with this, the connection can be made just from the prior paragraph.

They define what a Munro is in the same sentence. Are you here to just argue? I had to go back and add your post as a quote as I am not sure how someone can miss the literal definition within the sentence. "Munro, as the Scottish mountains above 3,000 feet are known". Is that difficult for you to read and understand?

LorenPechtel 271 days ago
I hike but I'm not a peak bagger. But the first time I encountered the term I found it completely obvious what it meant.

Having only spent a few days of my life in Scotland I didn't know "Munro" but the article defined it.

arrowleaf 271 days ago
Peak bagging is a very common term in the outdoor sports world. This complaint is like a non-tech person reading a Wired article that mentions JSON and complaining that there's no explainer.
infecto 271 days ago
Which is I assume an extension from the usage in hunting to "bag" an animal which is to catch/kill.
closewith 271 days ago
No, both stem from literarily and figuratively putting things in a bag. You can bag anything, a kiss, an award, item, person, accomplishment, etc.
infecto 271 days ago
Do you have any source for your disagreement. Last time I checked the phrasing as it applies to a game bag goes quite far back which would hint at its usage in later examples that you provided.

"Many figurative senses, such as the verb meaning "to kill game" (1814) and its colloquial extension to "catch, seize, steal" (1818) are from the notion of the game bag (late 15c.) into which the product of the hunt was placed. This also probably explains modern slang in the bag "assured, certain" (1922, American English). To be left holding the bag (and presumably nothing else), "cheated, swindled" is attested by 1793." https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=bag

aspenmayer 271 days ago
You’re both right in a way, in that you’re able to reason about the word from usage and context but it’s a separate meaning entirely, #5 below

From Oxford Dictionary of English

verb (bags, bagging, bagged) [with object]

1 put (something) in a bag: customers bagged their own groceries | we bagged up the apples | once you've raked the leaves, bag them up right away so that they don't get wet.

2 succeed in killing or catching (an animal): Mike bagged nineteen cod. • succeed in securing (something): we've bagged three awards for excellence | get there early to bag a seat in the front row.

3 [no object] (of clothes, especially trousers) form loose bulges due to wear: these trousers never bag at the knee.

4 North American English informal fit (a patient) with an oxygen mask or other respiratory aid.

5 (bags or bags I) British English informal a child's expression used to make a claim to something: bags his jacket.

6 North American English informal abandon or give up on: she ought to just bag this marriage and get on with her life.

7 informal, mainly Australian and New Zealand English criticize: the fans should be backing him not bagging him.

closewith 271 days ago
Number 5, bagsying, is subtly different. It's a claim to something, like dibs in the US.

No, both the GP and I are referring to number two, gaining something and literally or figuratively putting it in a bag. It applies equally to game and SaaS revenue and everything in between.

aspenmayer 271 days ago
I listed that definition also, to differentiate it from the one regarding the mountains.
lukeinator42 271 days ago
It's honestly even closer to a non-tech person complaining about the word upload being used without an explainer.
hluska 271 days ago
They introduce Charlie Kelly the previous paragraph, explain what a Munro is right after that and use quotes around “bag”. What else could you expect? “Bag” is extremely common in many industries and they defined both other different terms.

You just ripped on an editor for absolutely no reason.

daemonologist 271 days ago
The word to "bag" may be more common in this context but it's not exclusive to it nor very uncommon, at least in North America. You might say "they bagged a record in the 4x400m relay" or "we bagged the contract" or another form like "that objective is in the bag." I think it's etymologically derived from hunting (literally putting game in a bag) but at this point it's just a word.