The first time we planned a trip, we wanted to book a fishing charter. My wife called one of the local captains (Ronnie O'Neal) and couldn't understand half what he said. Ended up politely ending the call (and wondering out loud what she just heard). 15 minutes later, she gets a call back from the same number and it's the fisherman's son (Ryan). We'd never heard of the Ocracoke accent, but that's what it was... Ronnie was in his late 50s or 60s and had always lived on the island. Ryan was late-20s or early 30s at the time and attended to college on the mainland and spent some winters working inland as well, so his brogue was much less noticeable.
Anyways, we booked a trip with them several years in a row. Good times. Look them up if you find yourself down that direction and fancy a day of fishing.
The only awkward one was where the bloke was talking about fishing in the bright light, I had to watch the 4 or 5 times before I got the hang of it.
Maybe being English helps?
For non Brits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Country
Thick accent, poor cell phone connection. Much easier to understand when you're face to face (or video) and have context. It was probably 50% shock - she was expecting a "normal" east NC accent.
FWIW, I bet being English does help - I'm Scottish and don't struggle with accents anywhere near as much as some of my friends. I once had a roommate ask to turn on captions for Trainspotting - and those accents weren't even that thick (IMO)!
Edit: added "Strong" qualifer, fwiw.
For example, I thought I had a decent handle on Scottish accents. Turns out I don’t, just that all the Scottish people I worked with were anglicising their accents. I only heard their natural accents after we had a few pints. Now I’m working with several Scottish people who don’t change their accent and it is hard. I’m thinking I probably have to watch a few seasons of Outlander to get used to it.
There’s nothing “natural” about any accent. How difficult was the Boston accent the first time you heard it? I needed subtitles for sure. Then I watched several movies set in Boston (Good Will Hunting, The Departed, The Town) and it’s understandable now.
All this to say - you need familiarity to understand and you need to put in effort to gain familiarity. That’s fairly uncontroversial.
Here’s the controversial part - people will put in the effort to understand the accents and dialects of people from Scotland, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, America. But if it’s an accent/dialect from India, they say some racist shit about the brown people being unable to speak English.
So yes “Strong Indian accents are very difficult” for you. And now you know why.
Also, and again I might be wrong, but I cannot for the life of me understand people from Glasgow but the rest of Scotland was pretty much fine when I was there. I know it's kinda different but lumping "Scottish" together is already weird. I'm from Bavaria, I know how it is - people who understand German can't understand us :P
Someone saying "I'm going to pick up my ute in the arvo while I eat a jaffle" - sure, let me look up what that means. Whereas "Kindly do the needful" - no fuck this, you need to learn to fucking speak English.
I'd say the difference isn't what you've pointed out, it's the colour of the skin of the speaker. White people saying anything they feel like - the onus is on the listener to adapt. Brown/black people saying anything - they need to learn to speak English.
> lumping "Scottish" together is already weird
You lumping "Indian" together is equally weird. What's the matter? You can't tell the difference between a Tamil person and Malayali person speaking English? Spare me the condescension, please.
What is your native language, and what makes your struggle unique?
Do you also struggle to understand the myriad of other strong English accents, such as: Oz/Kiwi English, or Singlish (Singaporean/Malaysian English) or South African English, or Hongkonger English, or (Los Angeles) Valley Girl English (I jest here)... or French English, or whatever else? Plus, there are so many incredible YouTube content creators speaking English as a second (or third!) language these days... hell, it is like language accent training watching YouTube these days (hats of to them for publishing in a non-native language!).
India is a huge country with a strong local tradition of speaking English. That means Indian English has a lot of local quirks that someone from outside the country wouldn't know.
I imagine everyone who speaks English struggles to understand strong accents that have significant shifts from their local one. I work with lots of French people speaking English, and even after years of daily conversations it can still be a struggle to understand them. I've got better over time, but it's not nearly as straightforward as listening to a native speaker.
You're essentially saying you don't believe the OP actually struggles to understand some accents. Is that really an outlandish claim?
Every accent is different. Every accent needs effort to understand. The point is that Indian English isn't uniquely difficult. It doesn't have very many unique words, other than obvious ones (prepone) or quirks that are easy to understand (kindly do the needful). And yet, racist white people from around the world, even ESL speakers, will take delight in shitting on Indian English while putting in zero effort to understand it.
But if the same white people heard a fellow white person say "I'm going to pick up my ute in the arvo while eating a jaffle" they'll happily look that up and expand their vocabulary.
> You're essentially saying you don't believe the OP actually struggles to understand some accents.
I'm saying people who have a problem with Indian English in particular are racist pricks.
Fuck these racist double standards and fuck anyone who defends it.
Good day to you though.
Unfortunately, I have slight hearing deficiency, and working in an international environment is a nightmare, because for any given meeting, I understand 60% of what people say on a good day. Fortunately, I've learned that this doesn't really matter.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AIZgw09CG9E&t=38s&pp=2AEmkAIB
Barrier islands from Maryland to Georgia are linguistically fascinating. (As someone who spent a lot of time around them as a kid)
Anyway, starting as a teen I'd often hear these stories that there were "lost islands" on the Chesapeake Bay where the locals spoke "Elizabethan English." I suppose that might be the closest thing the dialect resembles, but I doubt it's much like what authentic Elizabethan English was. It's more like a mix of Old English, colonial-era American English, Scottish, and Irish with some old American Indian words mixed in. Basically, the guys who started "Talk Like a Pirate Day" should visit these islands to learn the dialect.
And of course a lot of times we'd come back from those trips with a Smith Island Cake for Mom.
A couple of years ago there were some guys from the power company in my backyard up in the Philly metro area cutting down tree limbs to make room for the electrical cables. They were up on a cherry picker and I went out in my backyard and I overheard them talking, and I recognized the accent in a second. I said, "Hey, are you guys from Salisbury?" They were very surprised and said "Princess Anne, how did you know?" and I said "I know a Somerset County accent anywhere" because it's how my relatives spoke.
I will run into people I know from northern England and some areas of Scotland at events and, especially in high noise environments like cocktail parties, I'm probably making out about half of what they say.
People from Bootle will have a different accent to people from Toxteth for example. 2 miles through a tunnel and you have the softer Scouse accent of the Wirral, the further from Birkenhead to Chester you get the less Scouse they sound.
Head south on the M62 and the Manc accent slowly melts into the Scouse, starting at roughly the Runcorn area.
As to Trainspotting, I found the subtitles a daft idea. Totally unnecessary, but then I'm from NE England.
Added: Apparently some folks had difficulty comprehending "Derry Girls".
Dominic West, Wire on: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4ANAtaQsBL4&t=43s
"Aaron earned an iron urn"
Coming from Australia I would say that the subtitles were mostly useful and only sometimes unnecessary. I'm ok with accents, but there's a lot of nuance that you miss when you're mostly infering from context.
That said, when we heard that the original Mad Max got dubbed for the US release we all fell around laughing
I can follow a wide variety of accents in this regard, slang, jargon and localized vocabulary, but subtitles still help a lot. Of course in foreign languages/dialects, our written proficiency/vocabulary may have a certain Venn overlap with the verbal skills.
When the dialogue is thick and lip-reading may fail, seeing the words is great. Often there may be unfamiliar words dropped in, or a sentence we couldn't decipher aurally, and there's the subtitle to spell it out for us.
I often subtitle American English shows as well. I suppose I'm simply addicted to reading words.
(I haven't seen it but I believe there's a deliberately barely-intelligible character in Clarkson's Farm who's an example of it, if you're familiar. Or Hot Fuzz.)
Definitely needed subtitles the first five or so times for Trainspotting. Love that one! To be fair I need subtitles for almost all modern movies these days. My hearing or sound design are to blame... maybe both. :-/
(I'm pretty sure his accent is exaggerated on purpose)
Close your eyes and _listen_, don't be distracted by the video.
Just Clarkson hamming things up.
We're simply comparing ability to distinguish other regional accents on the Island, not putting each other down. Generally folks here get to hear lots of different forms of spoken English.
and no - I ain't no "accent genius", there are parts of the Scouse, Brummie, and Durham accents I have trouble with.
Yes, for many Americans (myself included), that’s the problem.
I have the same trouble with many Appalachian accents which are also sort of a mix of West Country and Scottish accents due to historical immigration patterns.
I think it's important to remind people what executive orders can and can't do. An executive order is an instruction sent to the government itself. It instructs government workers how to perform their job. It is not directed at the American public (though it can and does have an effect on the American public by way of government policy).
As such, this current executive order effectively does nothing. We've attempted to pass laws that make English the national language, but have consistently failed to do so.
And personally, I'm for having English be the national language of America (as a bilingual American myself), but this executive order does not make that so.
My interpretation is that federal agencies will stop providing non-English services, unless these are already happening at 0 cost. (For example, not instructing agents to speak only English, but no longer considering second language proficiency in future hiring.)
IANAL, but there may be legal complications, as order 13166's stated goal is to prevent title VI discrimination on the basis of national origin. However, the revocation explicitly states it should implemented consistently with applicable laws.
[1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/03/desi...
[2] https://www.transportation.gov/civil-rights/civil-rights-awa...
That's not true. For example, there was a story the other day of a librarian who was instructed to throw away all passport application forms in Spanish, as they would no longer be accepted.
If you go to the official Spanish page, you can see that the links to the forms are either broken or now redirected to their English version:
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/es/pasaportes/requis...
That's just one example of many.
Hundred of technocrats and modern nobility cannot be wrong.
As to the stated wording though, "making English the country's official language" (which mirror's wording used in the most recent presidential address), the executive order has no power to do so, because it's not a law.
You’re not understanding the comment you are laughing at.
There was no legal change, there was an operations change in how the federal government does things.
It’s still legal to speak whatever language you want and you don’t need to speak English
It's all about twisting laws to disserve whatever collective they go after, so their voters (voters believing they are antagonists of the other collective) keep satisfied and vote again.
Meanwhile they give contracts and move money and services towards their friends, the ones that financed their campaign so they can bring the message about the evil collective to the voters.
One of the oldest tricks in the world.
The USA was built on immigration. It's called "the great melting pot" for a reason.
So at some point, you’re going to have to make accomodations for everyone, at least in the most popular languages because if you want new talent, you might be dealing with a family that has to bring their aging parents along if they want to migrate, or someone’s spouse.
> Japan is famously anti-immigrant though.
These misinformation needs to end. I'm tired of it. More than 20 years ago, this was true, but today it is certainly not. There are all varieties of non-Japanese working in convenience stores, factories, farms, and hotels all over Japan. Plus there are more non-Japanese attending uni than ever before. Many will stay for work. Plus, getting a skilled work visa in Japan has never been easier. Sure, not as easy as Germany, Australia or Canada, but still light years ahead of 20+ years ago. They even have a special highly skilled visa now that allows people to get permanent residence in 1 or 3 years. Again: 20+ years ago this was impossible to imagine. Today, it is the reality.If you want to become a US citizen, you have to show you're competent in English. [1] It's been this case for quite awhile.
I know that doesn't strictly mean that "English is the official language", but it is an official government body requiring you to know English in order to become a US citizen, so that seems a little official to me.
you can learn them all in your native language, and it really doesn't take a lot (done it).
by contrast, you then still need English competency to answer the questions.
I guess it depends on what that means. I'm for all services being in English at a minimum, that makes sense. I'm really not for removing obligations to translate or interpret.
Non-english speaking US citizens exist and interact with the government. For example, someone that's deaf. Or for reading, someone that's blind. Having access in those cases is important.
But further, there's a humanity aspect as well. Any asylum seeker can get railroaded. Or heck, a visitor from another country. If these people are accused of crimes they should have the right to understand why the government is punishing them if for no other reason than to give their side of the story.
Treat others as they would like to be treated.
A quick Google suggests that about 22% of Americans are multi-lingual, and roughly 8% of Americans do not have English as their dominant language (though I suspect that entirely non-English speaking Americans are at least one order of magnitude less).
I think only about 2% of countries in the world don't have an official language (America among them), and yet about 50% of the world is multi-lingual, so having an official language doesn't seem like an obstacle for other governments when it comes to support.
I suspect that the lack of of national language has more to do with the power struggle between the federal government and state governments then any issue, which is why I find this latest executive order quite baffling (for a party that is in the process of dismantling federal government, this is very much a federal power grab).
With all of that being said, I see it both as a recognition of the status quo, and a commitment to what is one of the greatest strengths of the United States (a single-language, single-currency market). Our largest economic rival (China) also has an enormous single-language, single-currency market, but that strength is largely focused inwards, since the use of a non-romanised language makes it very difficult for the non-Chinese reading population to adop sub-parts of the Chinese language.
- Can't speak English at all: 1.3% (~3.9 million people)
- Speak English "not well": 2.9% (~9 million people)
I have never expected a foreign government to provide English-language materials (especially non-tourism related materials) on any of my travels to other countries. Why should that be an expectation?
Why should that be an expectation? Because if you or I am being held against our will, wouldn't it be nice if you had an interpreter who could translate what the officer, lawyer, and judge are telling you? IE, if they tell you "you have to do this to not be locked up for 10 years" wouldn't it be nice to know how to comply with a ruling against you? Wouldn't it be nice if when they asked you questions you could actually answer them?
[1] https://eucrim.eu/articles/directive-201064eu-on-translation...
Innocent people are arrested all the time. You can't just "obey all the laws" and assume you won't have a run in.
Without the legal protection to get a translator, you are assuming after being arrested you can simply call a translation service. Yet, you should know that most countries and most cops will take your cell phone.
It's a humanitarian principle that before being prosecuted you should at a minimum know why you are being prosecuted.
> I certainly don’t expect them to be provided freely.
I never said they had to (though I think they should). What's more important is that you have access to translation services.
Trump's supporters are OVERWHELMINGLY people who would not travel to a non-English-speaking country for pleasure, except perhaps to an all-inclusive resort where they would never "have to" interact with a local (non-tourist-industry) person.
So they don't really empathize with the challenges of a less-fluent speaker in any locale. And we see that lack of empathy in many of the responses here.
They are also blissfully (aggressively?) unaware of how much their day-to-day existence, e.g. much of their food and clothing and other possessions and overall lifestyle, depend on people who don't speak fluent English.
“There are no significant partisan differences when it comes to international travel: 26% of Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents qualify as globe-trotters, as do 28% of Republicans and GOP leaners.”
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/12/06/americans...
Does it provide you a coping mechanism to create caricatures of these people and then pontificate about them? What is the point?
Also, you're dishonest. I never compared Republicans and Democrats w.r.t. world travel. Many people are empathetic without traveling. Although people who have traveled wouldn't normally advocate for "English only, let's make life impossible for other travelers!" Has orange-diaper not already blown up the tourism industry? I'm sure that's coming soon.
Finally, I don't need some white guy to explain "bigotry" to me - it is evident throughout this thread, in the daily papers, and pretty much everywhere. But you mysteriously don't see that.
In France, same thing. In Korea, also the same. Also China. And Mexico. Canada mandates French and English.
I see nothing wrong with a country having an official language. That doesn’t preclude people from speaking their own languages, but of you want to live in country Y, then learning that language should be a prerequisite.
What would be the benefit or reason for this? I am also a multilingual person, and in many of the communities where I work, the Spanish speaking population is a significant majority such that to mandate English would be sisyphean. Sadly I can't get anyone to speak German with me, despite that being equally represented among Americans at the founding of our republic.
If people are not forced to speak the official language they never learn and eventually self-isolate within their own communities. This leads to the Balkanization of the country. Canada is currently dealing with this in relation to its Indian population, which is approximately equivalent to the Hispanic population in America in terms of percentage of the population and the occupations they work in.
Canada has two official languages and knowledge of one or the other is theoretically required to immigrate there, but almost all government offices and most private banks provide services in multiple languages (e.g. Mandarin, Punjabi, Tagalog, Hindi, etc.), so it's quite common for immigrants to never bother learning English or French. There's also lots of entry programs which don't require the applicant to speak either of the official languages, as well as a lot of fraud in those programs that do.
This has not had positive effects on Canada's social cohesion.
Another (somewhat ironic) example is in Mexico City, where some local residents are upset about the influx of predominantly American digital nomads and retirees changing the character of the city because they do not speak Spanish.
I know an American who spent several years in Paris, working in English, and never learned more French than was necessary to order her coffee. And this is despite French being the national language of France. (Interestingly enough, France is very multi-lingual as well, with many regions having their own history and language like Provençal, or Niçois, Breton, etc.).
It's more about a recognition of the status quo (as another commenter pointed out, most people acquiring US citizenship are required to demonstrate the most basic level of proficiency with the english language), and ensuring a baseline of support, no matter where you are in the country. Multi-lingualism is a plus, and in no way hindered by having a national language
First of all, I appreciate that you’ve made sure to draw this distinction between official languages of the central government and national languages.
However, English is still an official language roughly on par with Hindi as a result of indefinite extensions that were provided for in the constitution (as well as protests and uprising). For example, parliamentary legislation is authoritative in English but must also be translated into Hindi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_with_legal_status_in...
Do you think it is a) easier and cheaper or b) harder and more expensive, to deliver services in a vast range of languages or a single language?
And to refuse to provide services in other languages and then also refuse to offer courses, as in, “you're on your own now, good luck!”, is a real dick move.
No national religion. No national language. No centralized identity registry. Social security numbers that are more like timid suggestions than actual identifiers. Opening a bank account with just two pieces of foreign identity. Enrolling your kids in school by simply showing up and filling some forms.
I grew up in a country where I was assigned at birth with one state religion (out of two), a national language (out of three), and an ironclad digital identity number.
The American approach felt like a breath of fresh air. I — and millions of others — could choose to be someone else than what the computer says.
But the rise of Trumpism disillusioned me. Now I’m back in my home country and happily paying taxes to the state church while my children enjoy free education in four languages. What seemed like an identity straitjacket when I was younger now appears more like a spectrum of cozy options that I know how to navigate. Meanwhile America looks hell-bent on acquiring the straitjacket.
In my opinion, this sort of thing greatly weakens us as a nation and will eventually destroy us if we can't figure out how to find common ground again. It should be possible - we've come back from worse (say what you will about modern day US politics, it hasn't come to civil war yet like it did in the past). But I think if we're going to find common ground, part of it will have to involve cultivating a shared national identity like we used to have.
We never had any of these, except for, possibly, just one shared belief: the idea that a constitutional democracy was the best sort of government to live under.
What we did have was a media/cultural environment that glossed over the differences between people, minimized various minority demographics, and worked hard to convince everyone that "we're all Americans and we all believe, do and want the same things". But that wasn't true then, any more than it is true today.
I want our shared national identity to be limited to our belief in our form of government. I don't want to have to know the same songs, go to the same church, drive the same car, watch the same shows as everyone else, and I don't think they should have to do that w.r.t my choices (nor are they likely to want to).
That was the beauty of "American identity", but even the belief in our form of government has been severely eroded. By whom or why ... I'll leave unremarked upon here.
America's proper and authentic identity always is its pluralism, entailing all the conflict that brings. If America made one unique contribution to the world its that it has shown how identities, plural, can be built from the bottom up and are in constant tension with each other, and that this is a feature, not a bug.
An American government trying to impose identity, by renaming lakes and mountains, mandating language(s) or what have you is so performative it looks more like North Korean state television than culture, it's utterly foreign to Americans and going to fail for that reason. Americans are instinctively allergic to having culture, regardless from what direction, declared on them by fiat.
US currency says "in God we trust". The government's official communications are in English.
I've always wondered what this actually means in practicality. The NYC MTA is still going to print the instructions for riding the train in 7 different languages. Is Taco Bell in Tulsa not allowed to print the menu in English and Spanish anymore?
Like, what is the point of this. I'm willing to accept that it's just a feel-good for the President's base. Like Gulf of America.
It doesn't affect Taco Bell because that's a private corporation. And it doesn't affect transportation because that's also intended for travelers, visitors, etc. Nor would it affect health care.
But a good example would be driver's license exams. California offers those in 32 languages. Almost all states offer them in at least 2. If English is made the official language by legislation, there would be a strong argument to only offer driver's license exams in English.
It means the Federal government now has a reason to not offer services in any language other than English. Before, they would offer services in Spanish, Chinese(various dialects) and other popular languages. They no longer have funding or a mandate to do that.
As far as what that means for the government, it's hard to say because of the way government is structured here. Let's put executive orders aside and say that Congress passes a law declaring that English is the official language, and that all government communication shall happen in English and nothing else. Certainly that would apply to the federal government. It shouldn't apply to the states, because the Constitution doesn't grant that power to the federal government - but we've been blatantly ignoring the Constitution in that respect for almost a century now, so it wouldn't be surprising if we ignore it in this case too. It would almost certainly go to the Supreme Court, but it's hard to say whether they would strike the law down or decide to torture the Commerce Clause even more.
If they strike the law down or clarify that it only can apply to the federal government, then you'd probably see some states pass their own similar laws (or amend their constitutions) to achieve a similar effect. But other states would still use whatever language. If they say yes, the law can affect states as well, then obviously it would. But either way I think you wind up at a point where private parties use whatever language they feel like, while government communications are in English only (at least to some extent).
Why are you for this? What problem does this solve, and how?
Seems to me we have made it 250 years without an official language and that this has caused approximately 0 problems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uuzr_gl4Oo
From the mountains to the sea, NC has quite a range of accents ("Voices of NC"):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAGG3LnEVvI
Previously the BBC covered Tangier, VA with nearly the same headline ("The tiny US island with a British accent"):
https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20180206-the-tiny-us-isla...
Short documentary on Tangier Island:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upKqzxuJ5L4
Newscast from the 1970s about Tangier:
Relevant video about Smith Island and the 'High Tider' accent used by many of its inhabitants:
I also had two friends during my time in the Caribbean who were originally from the Outer Banks. I don't remember which island exactly, but they both had noticeable accents that were unlike anything I had ever heard at the time.
Watching videos about the various Outer Banks accents definitely reminds me of them.
As a segue I'll recommend "Time Team", if you listen to Phil Harding (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Harding_(archaeologist)) you can hear the similarities.
IIRC there's also a community in Maryland with the same (or similar) accent.
On Ocracoke Island, the only American dialect that is not identified as American - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20262253 - June 2019 (73 comments)
I'm pretty sure there have been other threads about this and related topics (for example Tangier Island)...anyone?
To the same degree you can’t “drive there” with respect to any other island.
Ocracoke has had auto-carrying ferry service since at least the 1960’s from Hatteras and Cedar Island.
https://www.ncdot.gov/travel-maps/ferry-tickets-services/rou...
Is there some secret place on the Internet where an interested person can listen to ten uninterrupted minutes of conversation in a rare dialect, or do I need to become an enthusiastic traveller (unlikely)?
In this case, it's a unique sign language because Martha's Vineyard used to have a large population of deaf people.
Although my parents use some archaic words:
"Pass me yon cup please." (Yon as in yonder = that cup)
"It's a bully old day." (bully = good, grand)
"That's a quare setup." (quare = strange)
"Oh aye... that's right." (aye* = yes) *common in Northern Ireland / Scotland too
We use "woe" a lot. (woe = misery)
Em... that's it really I suppose.
Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1KP4ztKK0A (Okracoke Island is at 13:40)